26 October 2019

Two hands for beginners when throwing

Beginners should use two hands to hold the disc.

Beginners should only have the disc in one hand at the last possible moment to throw. This applies for backhand and forehand.

Why are two hands better than one?

Let's start with the forehand.

Teach this.
Firstly, a two-hand grip is more stable and supported than a one-hand grip. Experienced players can easily hold a forehand grip in one hand, but beginners often find it hard. It is easier to adjust the fingers of the throwing hand when the other hand can take the help take the weight of the disc.

Secondly, a two-hand grip promotes using more of the arm. A good forehand throwing action involves movement in the shoulder, then elbow, then wrist. A disc held vertical by two hands allows this more easily than a disc held horizontal near the waist, with the elbow wedged against the torso (sticky elbow syndrome) and often not extended.

Don't teach this.
Thirdly, a two-hand grip helps a beginner avoid the disc turning over during a forehand. Beginners find it hard to counteract the common outside-in curve, because their wrist rolls over (palm up to palm down). Have you seen beginners whose forehands always curve over?

In comparison, an experienced player throwing a forehand almost always rolls their wrist under (palm down to palm up). The two-hand grip puts the disc into a vertical position, where the wrist starts palm down. It greatly reduces this common beginner problem.

For the backhand, a two-hand grip is also valuable.

Start in two hands
Drawing the disc back prior to a throw with two hands rotates the torso more than a drawback with one hand, setting up the thrower to put more power into the backhand throw.

Perhaps you might ask: I don't hold the disc in two hands much, yet I throw well. So why should we teach beginners this way?

There are two answers.

Firstly, elite players do it. Watch Jimmy Mickle.


You also can watch 20 other elite players who were filmed in slow motion.

The Japanese use two hands. Look at the women's team (especially Eri Hirai, number 11) during this point. And look at the four throws the men's team use in this play (backhand, forehand, forehand, forehand). Nice put, Matsuno.

Secondly, the improvement in throwing technique across thousands of beginner and intermediate players from a better grip is utterly worthwhile. If elite players find different methods that also succeed that is awesome. But players learning our sport this year need to start from a base of better fundamental technique.

The gif below shows how to switch from a neutral stance into a two-hand forehand grip.



3 comments:

  1. Hi Owen,

    Great thought-provoking article.

    You have definitely made me think more about this, and to go out and test it to see if it holds up to the pros (and cons) that you say it lives up to. :)

    In doing so I've come to the conclusion that the title of the article is actually "Hold the disc with two hands", not actually "hold the disc with two hands when throwing it [yes paraphrased :) ]". This is stated in the first line after the title, almost 'correcting' the title above it.

    I think that all the 'points' used to say how holding the disc with two hands, prior to throwing it, helps you throw it better, don't actually apply. i.e. they sound good as a theory, however when I've actually put it into practice, I really can't say that holding the disc with two hands prior to throwing it, promotes more use of the arm, nor does it force my palm to face one direction over another when I throw the disc. Unless you are crossing your arms over somehow in a backhand throw, it doesn't promote more torso twist, it actually seems to promote less torso twist, than if I let my free (non-throwing) arm go back even further. Try it for yourself.

    I would go further to say that holding the disc with two hands before a flick actually promotes high release O-I flicks with more upward outside disc-edge angle, making it more prone to turn over (O-I style) due to its exaggerated incline and release height, which is something beginners are already prone to do, negatively affecting the discs stable long-duration flight-time.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that holding the disc in two hands is always going to be safer than holding it one hand. And by safer I mean, you are less likely to drop it, maybe from accidentally brushing it against your body or any other self-mishap, that doesn't involve another player bumping you.

    That's really what you are seeing in the videos of top level players holding the disc in two hands. It's just safer (It may also center and balance your stance, as well as face you in the direction you want to throw? - not such a bad thing, and this may be the biggest, positive, effect on throws IMHO).

    So yes, it's great to teach beginners to hold the disc with two hands whenever they are catching, and pivoting, and also immediately before they start their throwing action.

    As for 'cause and effect'.

    Does it promote better throws?

    No, I don't believe so.

    Would I teach beginners to hold the disc in two hands?

    "Absolutely yes", nothing has changed there. :)

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  2. Hi Phil

    Yes, the title is deliberately a bit off, as it plays off the memorable saying "two hands for beginners".

    For someone who is experienced at ultimate and throws well, a two-hand grip won't change much, and won't improve your throws. As you observed.

    It is intended as a preventative step for beginners, a significant number of who have poor technique. It will improve the orientation of their palm and the motion of their arm, if they have "sticky elbow syndrome".

    Two-hands for long backhands rotates the torso more. If you face with your chest at 45 degrees to the target (between towards and sideways), drawing your off hand back usually rotates the shoulders back more. This gives more power to longer throws. Your mileage may vary, but the footage of elite US throws seems to show them using it.

    Two hands on the disc before forehands is important for palm orientation and release height. A noticeable number of beginners have the disc at waist height through the forehand action. In the video example, Jimmy Mickle shows us good technique: disc goes waist height to head height to waist height.

    I would suggest that elite players have two hands on the disc for quickness of grip change, not safety. It may also help with off-elbow drive: https://ultiworld.com/2015/07/09/the-forehand-part-four-best-practices/

    Two hands on the disc. Does it promote better throws? I would say it helps prevent bad throwing techniques.

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  3. I did start to take more notice of my hold on the disc after watching the Japanese teams use of a strongly stylised two hand 'grab' of the disc when they were holding it. It was a noticeable feature of their 'style' of play that also differentiated them at the time they brought it into fashion, and as they did well, I thought I'd give it a go myself (they say imitation is the best form of flattery) hoping it would make me a better player, LOL.

    After using it for a bit I did become a fan of the accentuated 2-hand play style and have been getting my young padawans to apply it also, hoping it would also improve their play.

    I definitely think that there is an improvement in both my own play and that of beginners when applying that 2-hand approach. The only thing that I am still unsure of, as alluded to before, is the (scientific) reason why.

    I agree with your comment above, that it does feel easier/quicker to change between grips when holding the disc with 2 hands. In doing so, I also feel it acts as a good 'disguise' as to which throw you will use.

    Thanks again for putting up your article.

    We are in agreeance that 2-hands is better than one. :)

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